BCM possibility???
#21
08-02-2010 | 11:46 PM
Junior Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 15
From: Hiawatha, KS
On the scanner, you'll want one that at least gives a minor description, i.e. "lean bank 1", along with the codes. As far as the bank 1 sensor code goes, I encourage you to read the following post as it may... or may not, depending on your actual code, help:
https://oldsmobileforum.com/forum/silhouette-23/2000-silhouette-lean-code-3569/
I would scan the system again to see if the van's computer can tell you anything, though it only monitors PCM data. I could be wrong, but I don't believe there is ever any BCM cade data generated. BCM is not intended or needed for vehicle engine operations. BCM is more accessory and optional circuitry.
Now for the problems you are experiencing. Your symptoms are all over the page. I was expecting something may be also wrong with the stereo as it is also tied into the bcm on the same ground, that's why I specifically mentioned it. Try pulling the fuse to the radio & see what happens to the symptoms.
Next question, have you recently had a collision with this vehicle? The reason I ask is, if in fact the ground is good, you may have a harness getting chaffed or cut, maybe along the firewall, or by a recently installed screw or bolt. Again on grounds, check continuity between the ground under the dash and the engine block. Then try it from under dash back to the negative battery post. Both should have continuity. Try it with the radio on & with it off.
On your fuel guage... These stupid thigs go out way too often. But the interesting thing is it is not on the BCM circuit at all. it is on the PCM so it should have no effect on this situation, one way or another.
The last thing I would look for will require pulling the instrument cluster. It's a pain, but I've done it to replace dash guage lights. Those lights were soldered, and extremely difficult to locate replacements. But that's not helping you.
If you pull the dash, check connections, & pay special attention to the engine temp guage. The Engine temp sensor & relay are on the PCM, but the guage is on the BCM circuit in the instrument cluster.
I'm still leaning to grounds, then underhood accessory wiring junction box or chaffed BCM harness as the culprit.
Ref
https://oldsmobileforum.com/forum/silhouette-23/2000-silhouette-lean-code-3569/
I would scan the system again to see if the van's computer can tell you anything, though it only monitors PCM data. I could be wrong, but I don't believe there is ever any BCM cade data generated. BCM is not intended or needed for vehicle engine operations. BCM is more accessory and optional circuitry.
Now for the problems you are experiencing. Your symptoms are all over the page. I was expecting something may be also wrong with the stereo as it is also tied into the bcm on the same ground, that's why I specifically mentioned it. Try pulling the fuse to the radio & see what happens to the symptoms.
Next question, have you recently had a collision with this vehicle? The reason I ask is, if in fact the ground is good, you may have a harness getting chaffed or cut, maybe along the firewall, or by a recently installed screw or bolt. Again on grounds, check continuity between the ground under the dash and the engine block. Then try it from under dash back to the negative battery post. Both should have continuity. Try it with the radio on & with it off.
On your fuel guage... These stupid thigs go out way too often. But the interesting thing is it is not on the BCM circuit at all. it is on the PCM so it should have no effect on this situation, one way or another.
The last thing I would look for will require pulling the instrument cluster. It's a pain, but I've done it to replace dash guage lights. Those lights were soldered, and extremely difficult to locate replacements. But that's not helping you.
If you pull the dash, check connections, & pay special attention to the engine temp guage. The Engine temp sensor & relay are on the PCM, but the guage is on the BCM circuit in the instrument cluster.
I'm still leaning to grounds, then underhood accessory wiring junction box or chaffed BCM harness as the culprit.
Ref
#22
08-03-2010 | 02:06 AM
Thread Starter
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 35
On the scanner, you'll want one that at least gives a minor description, i.e. "lean bank 1", along with the codes. As far as the bank 1 sensor code goes, I encourage you to read the following post as it may... or may not, depending on your actual code, help:
https://oldsmobileforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3569
I would scan the system again to see if the van's computer can tell you anything, though it only monitors PCM data. I could be wrong, but I don't believe there is ever any BCM cade data generated. BCM is not intended or needed for vehicle engine operations. BCM is more accessory and optional circuitry.
Now for the problems you are experiencing. Your symptoms are all over the page. I was expecting something may be also wrong with the stereo as it is also tied into the bcm on the same ground, that's why I specifically mentioned it. Try pulling the fuse to the radio & see what happens to the symptoms.
Next question, have you recently had a collision with this vehicle? The reason I ask is, if in fact the ground is good, you may have a harness getting chaffed or cut, maybe along the firewall, or by a recently installed screw or bolt. Again on grounds, check continuity between the ground under the dash and the engine block. Then try it from under dash back to the negative battery post. Both should have continuity. Try it with the radio on & with it off.
On your fuel guage... These stupid thigs go out way too often. But the interesting thing is it is not on the BCM circuit at all. it is on the PCM so it should have no effect on this situation, one way or another.
The last thing I would look for will require pulling the instrument cluster. It's a pain, but I've done it to replace dash guage lights. Those lights were soldered, and extremely difficult to locate replacements. But that's not helping you.
If you pull the dash, check connections, & pay special attention to the engine temp guage. The Engine temp sensor & relay are on the PCM, but the guage is on the BCM circuit in the instrument cluster.
I'm still leaning to grounds, then underhood accessory wiring junction box or chaffed BCM harness as the culprit.
Ref
https://oldsmobileforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3569
I would scan the system again to see if the van's computer can tell you anything, though it only monitors PCM data. I could be wrong, but I don't believe there is ever any BCM cade data generated. BCM is not intended or needed for vehicle engine operations. BCM is more accessory and optional circuitry.
Now for the problems you are experiencing. Your symptoms are all over the page. I was expecting something may be also wrong with the stereo as it is also tied into the bcm on the same ground, that's why I specifically mentioned it. Try pulling the fuse to the radio & see what happens to the symptoms.
Next question, have you recently had a collision with this vehicle? The reason I ask is, if in fact the ground is good, you may have a harness getting chaffed or cut, maybe along the firewall, or by a recently installed screw or bolt. Again on grounds, check continuity between the ground under the dash and the engine block. Then try it from under dash back to the negative battery post. Both should have continuity. Try it with the radio on & with it off.
On your fuel guage... These stupid thigs go out way too often. But the interesting thing is it is not on the BCM circuit at all. it is on the PCM so it should have no effect on this situation, one way or another.
The last thing I would look for will require pulling the instrument cluster. It's a pain, but I've done it to replace dash guage lights. Those lights were soldered, and extremely difficult to locate replacements. But that's not helping you.
If you pull the dash, check connections, & pay special attention to the engine temp guage. The Engine temp sensor & relay are on the PCM, but the guage is on the BCM circuit in the instrument cluster.
I'm still leaning to grounds, then underhood accessory wiring junction box or chaffed BCM harness as the culprit.
Ref
#24
08-05-2010 | 03:21 AM
Thread Starter
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Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 35
I found a bulletin that explains exactly what is happening
This PI was superseded to provide a clear diagnostic procedure. Please discard PI01574.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.
The problem being if I change the PK3 doesnt that mean I would need to have it reprogramed? I will try the radio first but since there are so many items that run through the radio I am not sure if the van will even start with that fuse removed. Doesnt hurt to try though lol.
This PI was superseded to provide a clear diagnostic procedure. Please discard PI01574.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.
Condition/Concern:
Some customers may comment that intermittently, the IPC gauges sweep erratically (not as in WOW test) and the charge, MIL, ABS & SIR indicators illuminate on the IPC. Typically no DTC's are set. This condition occurs briefly and there is no pattern as to when (hot, cold, fast, slow). This may be a result of a loose connection to the PK3/Theft Module or the PK3/Theft Module itself.
Recommendation/Instructions:
To correct this condition verify that the PCM/PASSKEY/CLUSTER fuse and the PASS-KEY fuse for the PK3/Theft Module are fully seated to the IP Electrical Center. Verify the integrity of the wire crimps and terminal contact for these fuse(s). Inspect the PK3/Theft Module connector. Verify there is adequate pin drag and crimp to the wires in this connector. If there is no trouble found, replace the PK3/Theft Module at steering column as needed. Retest vehicle.
Another concern is maybe the cluster itself is acting up. What happens when the needles stick, when do they resume operating? A simple test is performed to condemn the cluster, a gauge sweep test. It is performed with the use of a scan tool, though. As far as I know, an aftermarket scan tool is not capable. I may be wrong.
Some customers may comment that intermittently, the IPC gauges sweep erratically (not as in WOW test) and the charge, MIL, ABS & SIR indicators illuminate on the IPC. Typically no DTC's are set. This condition occurs briefly and there is no pattern as to when (hot, cold, fast, slow). This may be a result of a loose connection to the PK3/Theft Module or the PK3/Theft Module itself.
Recommendation/Instructions:
To correct this condition verify that the PCM/PASSKEY/CLUSTER fuse and the PASS-KEY fuse for the PK3/Theft Module are fully seated to the IP Electrical Center. Verify the integrity of the wire crimps and terminal contact for these fuse(s). Inspect the PK3/Theft Module connector. Verify there is adequate pin drag and crimp to the wires in this connector. If there is no trouble found, replace the PK3/Theft Module at steering column as needed. Retest vehicle.
Another concern is maybe the cluster itself is acting up. What happens when the needles stick, when do they resume operating? A simple test is performed to condemn the cluster, a gauge sweep test. It is performed with the use of a scan tool, though. As far as I know, an aftermarket scan tool is not capable. I may be wrong.
The problem being if I change the PK3 doesnt that mean I would need to have it reprogramed? I will try the radio first but since there are so many items that run through the radio I am not sure if the van will even start with that fuse removed. Doesnt hurt to try though lol.
Last edited by ofblong; 08-05-2010 at 03:23 AM.
#25
08-06-2010 | 10:44 AM
Junior Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 15
From: Hiawatha, KS
This is way out of my realm of knowledge or ability as there is absolutely no reference to a PK3/Theft Module on the wiring diagram in the Haynes manual I have. The last thing I want to do is give bad advice, so I shouldn't go any farther with this issue. I hope you solve the problem.
Referee
Referee
#26
08-06-2010 | 12:18 PM
Super Moderator
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 708
From: United States
The Haynes manual will not have the antitheft wiring (for obvious reasons!)
Read my thread on Passlock/Passkey problems (stickied on the Alero section) for a better understanding of that system. I've never heard of it causing all of your symptoms, but apparently it can.
I would try checking the connections, it can't hurt. As long as the battery is disconnected while you have everything apart, I can't see why a relearn would be needed.
If you do need a new module, it should come unprogrammed, and I think they learn the correct key resistance the first time a key is inserted. I would confirm that with a dealer, though.
Read my thread on Passlock/Passkey problems (stickied on the Alero section) for a better understanding of that system. I've never heard of it causing all of your symptoms, but apparently it can.
I would try checking the connections, it can't hurt. As long as the battery is disconnected while you have everything apart, I can't see why a relearn would be needed.
If you do need a new module, it should come unprogrammed, and I think they learn the correct key resistance the first time a key is inserted. I would confirm that with a dealer, though.
#27
08-07-2010 | 06:23 AM
Thread Starter
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Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 35
well it hasnt happened in 3 days of driving it now (except one instance where for a split second the security light came on then went back off) so I am hesitant to change anything parts wise. I did remove the body grounds and scrubbed them with a wire brush though they all looked basically brand new (no rust whatsoever though there is no rust on this van anyways). I flipped the distribution box upside down and removed the bottom cover. I would say 70% of the wires I was able to push in a little further so maybe they were coming loose and causing an intermittent problem. The wires coming from the BCM and the radio 90% of those were "loose" in that wire harness. I also tightened all 3 bolts on the wire harnesses in the box and I got about 3/4 of a turn to 1 full turn on those bad boys. so hopefully the distribution center will fix it????? We shall see. I did just buy a Equus 3130 to see if I can get any other info as well autozone just doesnt give me the information I am requesting because they "cant" cause of some liability or something.
Iflylow I will read that in a couple of days. It has been a hectic week for me so I have not had much time to do much of anything lol. I have read online in a few places that the way you stated for relearn is correct. I guess if I do need a pk3 module and I replace it and it doesnt work I can always tow it with my truck to the stealership lol.
Iflylow I will read that in a couple of days. It has been a hectic week for me so I have not had much time to do much of anything lol. I have read online in a few places that the way you stated for relearn is correct. I guess if I do need a pk3 module and I replace it and it doesnt work I can always tow it with my truck to the stealership lol.
Last edited by ofblong; 08-07-2010 at 06:28 AM.
#28
08-09-2010 | 08:58 PM
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Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 35
just figured I would give an update...
It started doing it after about 60 miles of driving the other day. I had the meter with me so when we got to our location I got lucky enough that it was happening every 2 seconds.
So anyways I put my meter (used both my $500 meter work bought me and my cheap $40 meter) and the voltage was all over the place. was dropping down to 11volts (sometimes a quick 9v but very quick so I think that was a "fluke") but never got above 13.2volts. It had some very inconsistant voltage readings as in it wouldnt stay at any specific number for more than a second or 2 before changing again.
I then turned the van off and we had our "fun" for about an hour. I came back to the van and started it. The alternator was putting out 14.22 volts. lasted for about a minute and then it started dropping. when it got down to 13.2 volts it started going all over the place again. I am sure both my meters are good but I do have a 3rd one that is a clamp on amp meter that I could try if I need be but im pretty sure this means I have a bad alternator since I checked all the wiring and it has no cracks or anything.
my obd 2 scanner is supposed to be here wed so when I get it I am going to check the codes and if there is no other code besides the bank 1 sensor 1 im gonna replace the alternator and the o2 sensor.
It started doing it after about 60 miles of driving the other day. I had the meter with me so when we got to our location I got lucky enough that it was happening every 2 seconds.
So anyways I put my meter (used both my $500 meter work bought me and my cheap $40 meter) and the voltage was all over the place. was dropping down to 11volts (sometimes a quick 9v but very quick so I think that was a "fluke") but never got above 13.2volts. It had some very inconsistant voltage readings as in it wouldnt stay at any specific number for more than a second or 2 before changing again.
I then turned the van off and we had our "fun" for about an hour. I came back to the van and started it. The alternator was putting out 14.22 volts. lasted for about a minute and then it started dropping. when it got down to 13.2 volts it started going all over the place again. I am sure both my meters are good but I do have a 3rd one that is a clamp on amp meter that I could try if I need be but im pretty sure this means I have a bad alternator since I checked all the wiring and it has no cracks or anything.
my obd 2 scanner is supposed to be here wed so when I get it I am going to check the codes and if there is no other code besides the bank 1 sensor 1 im gonna replace the alternator and the o2 sensor.
#29
08-11-2010 | 06:32 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 35
Got my scanner today. all I got was a code and a pending code. Both were the same number. But idiot me cleared the code instead of saving it (hit the wrong button hey its my first scanner lol) I do not believe it was P1401 but I dont remember. So now I get to drive the thing to work and get the code to come back lol. I did test the live data and the o2 sensor is reading between .1 and .9 but it wasnt upto temp yet.... Ref I am going to check the filter and MAF before changing the sensor especially since I am seeing it read between .1 and .9 even though its not upto temp. Though it tends to stay more on the .9 (.85) side than the .1 side.
As for the alternator there was no codes for charging but from what I understand it may have cleared itself when the initial voltage came back to normal. I cant believe how expensive this alternator is. I am used to $130 and cheaper alternators. Im not used to $260 for one. Either way I had to order it since it isnt a normally stocked item. Hopefully I can get it by saturday. Plus it looks like the alternator is going to be a pain in my rear end to change. Another first since im used to the water pump being in the back and the alternator in the front instead of the other way around like this one.
As for the alternator there was no codes for charging but from what I understand it may have cleared itself when the initial voltage came back to normal. I cant believe how expensive this alternator is. I am used to $130 and cheaper alternators. Im not used to $260 for one. Either way I had to order it since it isnt a normally stocked item. Hopefully I can get it by saturday. Plus it looks like the alternator is going to be a pain in my rear end to change. Another first since im used to the water pump being in the back and the alternator in the front instead of the other way around like this one.
Last edited by ofblong; 08-11-2010 at 06:34 PM.
#30
08-13-2010 | 09:30 PM
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Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 35
hi yes its me again LOL
Ok changed the alternator. let me tell ya if you think you can get that alternator out without pulling the engine forward your in for one heck of a hard time and its not worth it. If only there was 1/8" extra space I would have been able to get the thing out without pulling the engine forward lol.
anyways I let it run for 20 minutes then drove it to my parents house 45 miles away. It screwed up once. The weird thing is the power for the DTC also dropped so my scanner got disconnected from the pc. I am wondering if this "might" have been part of the relearn process as I only got 3 miles down the road when it did this and well the rest of the 42 miles there and the 45 miles back home it never did it again.
The voltage coming off the alternator is now consistant and isnt fluctuating. Meaning when I put the meter on the battery terms it reads what it is supposed to (depending on battery level and whats being used) and only deviates .01 volts. Before it was moving up and down 2-3 volts all the time so im glad its consistent now.
sorry I rant and state "extras" when I type but maybe this will help someone. Pulling the engine forward was a TON easier than I thought it would be. Didnt realize it was basically pulling the air filter housing (which I replaced the filter) off and then removing the mount brackets on top. Oh and I replaced the serpentine belt while I had it off since it does have almost 100k on the thing and it was a little "worn".
ref forgot to add that I followed yer procedure and well the filter was quite dirty but the MAF was very clean.
Ok changed the alternator. let me tell ya if you think you can get that alternator out without pulling the engine forward your in for one heck of a hard time and its not worth it. If only there was 1/8" extra space I would have been able to get the thing out without pulling the engine forward lol.
anyways I let it run for 20 minutes then drove it to my parents house 45 miles away. It screwed up once. The weird thing is the power for the DTC also dropped so my scanner got disconnected from the pc. I am wondering if this "might" have been part of the relearn process as I only got 3 miles down the road when it did this and well the rest of the 42 miles there and the 45 miles back home it never did it again.
The voltage coming off the alternator is now consistant and isnt fluctuating. Meaning when I put the meter on the battery terms it reads what it is supposed to (depending on battery level and whats being used) and only deviates .01 volts. Before it was moving up and down 2-3 volts all the time so im glad its consistent now.
sorry I rant and state "extras" when I type but maybe this will help someone. Pulling the engine forward was a TON easier than I thought it would be. Didnt realize it was basically pulling the air filter housing (which I replaced the filter) off and then removing the mount brackets on top. Oh and I replaced the serpentine belt while I had it off since it does have almost 100k on the thing and it was a little "worn".
ref forgot to add that I followed yer procedure and well the filter was quite dirty but the MAF was very clean.
Last edited by ofblong; 08-13-2010 at 09:36 PM.